#4 Stubborn stone (On the current state of the rumble meta)
T
Tamrell
This post is part of a set of 6 posts where I talk about the current meta:
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#1: The second jump/airdash: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/1-the-second-jump-airdash-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta
#2: Knockback: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/2-knockback-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta
#3: Volatile stone: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/3-volatile-stone-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta
#4: Stubborn stone: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/4-stubborn-stone-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta
#5: Guard Stone: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/5-guard-stone-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta
#6: Client/host balancing: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/6-client-host-balancing-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta
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4 Stubborn stone
Currently one of the biggest problems with the meta in my view is the way the stubborn stone works. Just like how Volatile is able to create an unreasonable amount of chaos and take players' control over their movement away, Stubborn turns this upside down and is able to basically turn off the mechanics of hitstun and knockback (in which you cannot spawn anything), removing most if not all real drawbacks from getting hit.
As a cost for the super power of getting a free ticket for unimpeded movement and being invincible to getting combo'd: you take 1 extra damage instead of the knockback and hitstun.
Just kidding, what I meant was that you also take 1 damage less. This is why the playstyle "equip stubborn + dash -> do moves during dash -> dash do moves during dash -> rinse repeat" is currently dominating the meta.
Without windup or pose dedication (being generally unable to do other poses while moving) this approach is strongly encouraged at the moment and leaves sprint in the dust on all fronts, whereas the sprint tradeoff "do I move around OR do I spawn/apply modifiers?"
seems much more balanced for the gameplay loop.
some changes I think would solve the problem with this shiftstone:
- should not have as big an active window, it should be a skill/read based activation where there is a small window that lets you punch through a structure (e.g knockback negation could be on the second pose being active, making it so you have to choose between having the stubborn effect or spawning structures)
- Should not also ignore explosion knockback, if your movement becomes fully interuptable in all ways, it's just a "pose dash for single player mode"
- without an equivalent for sprint (see e.g https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/swift-stone-sprint-based-shiftstone) there is a bit of a "utility" vacuum where people are incentivised to never learn how to incorporate sprint in their playstyle since instant-max-speed-knockback-resistent-damage-lowering-almost-full-uptime-while-you-can-spawn-structures-during-the-movement will always be the better movement option
In any case, being able to "turn off" the hitstun (unable to spawn) and knockback (unable to control position) mechanics perpetually and all-encompassingly for yourself with a shiftstone I feel is detrimental to the gameloop where "positioning" strategically is considered important.
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L
L3mmi05/Val
I agree with Nat's idea of stripping the -1 damage to start. This would switch its utility a lot by having it be an active trade of HP against positional advantage, instead of adding a reward to doing what you want to do anyways.
I think combining this with Lux's idea of a fully committed dash would work very well balance wise but also flavor wise.
2
2Guib
I'm not sure about these balancing, but I do agree that current stubborn is very strong and has a lot of benefits for too little punishment.
As another balancing suggestion, here is one from Sauerkraut.
The idea is to make stubborn not work on grounded objects.
I think it's a good idea that adds a counter play to stubborn without damaging its utility or feeling too much.
Check the post for more detail
T
Tamrell
2Guib I am afraid making it not work on grounded objects would not make much of a difference though:
in general getting a grounded object to your opponent without it getting ungrounded is very rare in my experience, especially with a single noncommittal disc+explode ungrounding everything in a pretty big radius (it is not hard to repeatedly forcibly unground everything your opponent spawns or just moving explode objects as a barrier in the direction you're wanting to go)
This isn't even taking into account that you could technically play intentionally with an exploded disk perpetually in a flick hold around you (would make it more skillful for sure but I wouldn't want to go into that direction and instead make the move on its own just more intentional and require more pose dedicaton)
2
2Guib
Tamrell I don't think it's as hard as you say to hit someone with a grounded structure.
I use a lot of them myself especially against stubborn heavy players.
Because when on a high movement phase or near the edge, they'll tend to go through structures on purpose, and that's when you can get them with a grounded mix-up. I would make rushing in more risky for stubborn users by adding a simple counterplay.
And dashing with an holded exploding structure don't sound very feasible and effective since when you want to dash you usually want to do it quick on reaction
But I agree that it wouldn't change drastically the strength of stubborn overall. Going through chip damage like discs or balls would be the same. Maybe doing more grounded balls/discs could become a thing.
About tightening the timing, I'm not sure it would be a good idea, especially for client where It can already be very tricky to find the right timing, because dash is client side, but stubborn trigger still host side
For explosions, maybe, I feel like it would probably impact also dash since it seems like the dash already cancel most of the knock back as long as you don't get hit
L
Lux
I think negating mindlessly a core component of the game like knockback was a bad design choice. It reflects on how the stone is seen. Because dash lock one in a direction a stubborn user might get a lot of hits on them before. But dash can be reactivated whenever, even on dash. Instead, lock the dash and let players commit to using a invincible stone but be stuck in a direction. That would also make sprinting a more appealing option by allowing fast movement and redirectionning.
Y
YourNeighborNat
I feel like pruning away the -1 damage on dash from stubborn might be a good start and possibly enough to balance it. If not, perhaps more could be done, but I think that might be a solid start. The fact that players can be hit multiple times without getting knocked away by the hits due to Stubborn Stone's knockback negation might be decently balanced if the player using it takes full damage.
S
Sauerkraut
YourNeighborNat While I can see where you are coming from, removing the damage negation would make me dislike the stone a lit more. As of now ine of the biggest contributions stubborn makes to the game right now is introducing a counter do chip, and even if we would remove the damage negation stubborn will still be almslost just as strong since the broken part is that you can negate any knockback if any kind at any point without your opponent being able to do anything about it. If we want to balance the stone while also not making it loose what makes it helpfull to the balancing other moves the knockback protection is the property to tweek.
I also made a post about this topic a while back myself, I go into a lot more detail about my proposed solution there ^^
k
klibe
If the window is smaller i think there should be more of a visual cue for when its active
Y
YourNeighborNat
klibe Might be nice to have an added visual cue regardless.
T
Tamrell
klibe I agree with this absolutely, visual cues are key for mechanics like this