Two Charge Stones (Charge Stone, Cracked Charge Stone)
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YourNeighborNat
TL;DR
Essentially: two versions of charge stone. One version has the behavior that allows for chambering and/or battery and one has the fixed, originally intended behavior so that unwanted charge expenditures on non-held structures are gone. They each have slightly different appearance and visuals. Only one can be equipped at a time.
LONG VERSION:
Having played with Charge Stone a significant amount with a style that does not primarily utilize Charge Chambering or Charge Battery as my core thing, there have been instances where I modify another object accidentally, consuming my charge due to the current bug(s)/emergent behavior(s) that allow for, when used intentionally, styles like Charge Chambering to exist. In instances where someone using the Charge Stone hits another structure, whether intentionally or otherwise, and might prefer to retain their charge instead of suddenly having it gone, having the bug behind this occurrence fixed might actually be nice. I think it might be nice to be able to modify over structures with straight, kick, and stomp while holding a charged object without spending that charge. On the other hand, if this were to be implemented to the current, singular version of Charge Stone, those Rumblers who practice sibling fighting style(s) to my own would cease to have the core emergent mechanic that allows their style(s) to exist.
My suggestion: add a second "cracked" Charge Stone.
Details:
- It could have the current or similar behavior to what Charge Stone has now, allowing for things like Charge Chamber to exist.
- It would, presumably, be mutually exclusive with wearing standard Charge Stone given the extreme similarity in functionality. They could be thought of as essentially the same stone, just one is "cracked" and one is not.
- The particle visuals of the Cracked Charge Stone could, as others have suggested about Charge Stone, indicate that the boost is coming from the player and affecting whatever structure they might modify instead of just the structure currently held.
- To differentiate it from the standard version, the Cracked Charge Stone itself could look like a Charge Stone that has cracked in some way. Perhaps further visual indicators could be added to this. A rough mock-up of this alongside an image of the original Charge Stone is attached.
- The Cracked Charge Stone could have a description indicating that it allows you to modify other structures, while the standard version could specify that it only affects the object you're holding.
- The Cracked Charge Stone could be added to the market as the way to obtain this alternate version of the stone.
In addition to these things, the standard Charge Stone could retain its current visual, as once it is fixed, that visual should now be accurate.
Also, on a note about flavor, I think having this second version of the Charge Stone being a cracked version or similar could be a neat homage to the fact that the mechanics it has were not originally intended. It could also be a play on words, akin to when a phone or similar is "cracked" to do things it wasn't originally intended to do.
Thank you for your consideration. Peace!
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YourNeighborNat
As an alternative name, the stone with current behavior could be called a "Charge Chambering Stone" and the shift stone with the initially intended behavior just the "Charge Stone".
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Heated_Kaizen
Breaking stones into two versions that do different intents I think is a positive on stone diversity and choice. Not only is it going to open up more playstyles and depth of knowledge which I think is always a + for people who stick with the game, but it also makes the potential inventiveness of fundamental styles higher which is great.
I don't know if it needs to be in this exact form, or another way of charging the person versus the held object and how chambering works. But it's consideration is assuredly worthwhile. 💜
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L3mmi05/Val
I really like this idea!
As a very active chamber and battery user, I of course want the new "features" to stay, but I can also appreciate the simplicity and differing gameplay patterns the "original" charge stone would bring.
I would personally opt for a heavier distinction between the two in order to a. be easier to distinguish at a glance in fights- I'd like to know what my opponent can do - and b. make it less confusing for new players.
I propose:
Power Stone
Holding a structure for [] seconds allows you to extract the earths power from it, enhancing your next force modifier.
I would suggest the same charge time. I would also suggest a slightly lower Strength modifier (x1.75?) to make up for the gained versatility.
Framing it as "extracting power" both makes the "recharging" side of chambers and batteries more intuitive, and explains that the "power" is not on the structure, like with charge, but on you.
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YourNeighborNat
L3mmi05/Val Hmmmm... visual distinctiveness is likely a useful thing to consider, but if it was an entirely separate stone flavor-wise, would it intuitively make as much sense to make the two of them mutually exclusive for balance reasons? If this route was taken, perhaps this Power Stone could have a similar shape and a distinct, but somewhat associated color to Charge Stone to imply that they are related in some way?
In regard to the flavor, it seems that perhaps this idea of "extracting power" could almost be seen as an opposite of charging a structure, if charging a structure could be viewed as pouring power into it. Seems like a neat framing.
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Tamrell
I like the idea and especially since the originally intended behaviour is not in the game right now it makes sense to just also have that
as a visual I would think having additional gray particles (like a smoking engine :')) would be a nice distinction
As for stacking them, I think it should be fine right? it could do one of these:
- give you 2 charges (1 that can be applied on any structure and 1 that can only be aplied on yours, imagine strupper with this)
- give you some larger modifier or lower charge time
it would probably be a hassle to implement mutually exclusive shiftstones so I imagine this could be preferable
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YourNeighborNat
Tamrell Hmmm... for the visuals, maybe a mix of gray and yellow particles on a wearer of a Cracked Charge Stone and around their structure? Maybe with a 2/3 gray to 1/3 yellow ratio? That could be kinda smoking engine-y while retaining some relation to Charge Stone more. Also, perhaps a line of said particles linking between the two could be nice, though that may be harder compared to just making the player and the structure both have particles, considering we kinda have that now between Charge and Surge/Adamant/Vigor.
Additionally, ehh, I think I'd personally prefer them not to be stackable. If nothing else, seems messy with balancing concerns and may take more dev time to make them work together. Maybe it could be a much bigger pain to implement than I realize, but I assume they could have it so if you select one of the two charge stones, it would just lock the other from being selected.
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YourNeighborNat
In regard to 3: "The particle visuals of the Cracked Charge Stone could, as others have suggested about Charge Stone, indicate that the boost is coming from the player and affecting whatever structure they might modify instead of just the structure currently held."
From one of my comments on: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/integration-of-charge-battery-behavior-as-a-lingering-buff-for-charge-stone
"Further thought about intuitive visuals and losing charge if the structure is destroyed: I think it could be nice if we both kept the current or a similar visual around the charged structure, but also have a visual around the player. It could more intuitively imply a connection between the wielder and the structure they are getting the charge from. Then, if the structure is destroyed, they could lose the charge and not get a lingering effect and this could be indicated by both the charge visual on the structure and the player ending immediately. If the player with charge unheld the structure themselves and therefore had the lingering effect, the unheld structure could also retain the charge visual effect until it wears off the player, indicating that if the opponent destroys the unheld structure, the player with charge would immediately lose their charge. Also, If desired, perhaps a subtle line of particles could go between the charged, but unheld structured and the player with the charge."
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yiak65
If it were entirely a second stone, it would have to have an interaction with the original in some way, as they would both be able to be equipped at the same time. This idea would have to be somehow an option of the stone.
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YourNeighborNat
yiak65 If they are flavored as being versions of the same stone and therefore not allowed to be equipped at the same time, I think that deals with that consideration well enough
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Tamrell
YourNeighborNat it would require implementing a system for mutually exclusive shiftstones which in turn would increase the bar to implementing it
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YourNeighborNat
Tamrell I don't know how it works under the hood, but you already can't equip the same stone on both hands. Perhaps there might already be something that allows for restricting shift stone usage?
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Musical-Memoirs
I personally don't see a reason why you wouldn't want the chambering effect. But I guess a small part of the community doesn't always want it... But I wouldn't mind if there are 2 versions of the stone. It would allow you to customize your playstyle a tiny big more...
A rare few people also liked the implode bug on stubborn combined with explode. Even though most disliked it, the bugged version had some support. So there are more stones that could get a double treatment like that. https://rumble.canny.io/bug-reports/p/explode-is-explodeimplode
Maybe flowstone could get a separate wavedash stone variation as well. As that tech is almost always used in combination with the flow stone.
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YourNeighborNat
Musical-Memoirs
If there was the option of both, it could kind of be thought of as a choice between the consistency of maintaining the charge on the one structure you want to boost without the risk of accidentally spending it on, say, a disc/ball someone launches at you vs. the flexibility of being able to use your charge on whatever structure you choose nearby. I think the non-chamber version could also allow for something like a more relaxed variant move of the chambering Rook's Defense. Something like hold pillar (+ explode) -> pillar fully charged -> ball/disc straight -> momentum charged strupper/straight pillar at some time after the ball/disc that without having to really tightly time trying to get the ball/disk out before the charge finishes to not consume the charge on them. Maybe two ball-straights before launching the pillar...?
But, if something akin to this idea doesn't go through, I imagine I'll reintegrate some basic chambering moves into my move set though. Depending on how things go and what I might value in that trade-off, I perhaps would even still use the Cracked Charge Stone version with the variant visuals.
Also, even if it, understandably, wouldn't be your preference to actually use a Charge Stone without chambering, thank you for your support. :)
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YourNeighborNat
Further thought on the benefits of a version of Charge Stone without chambering: it would also allow for defensively using Stomp on an incoming structure without expending a charge (while a grounded object is held/charged).
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YourNeighborNat
Further-further thought on the benefits of a version of Charge Stone without chambering: To solidify one point, It'd also allow for non-charged chambering while holding a fully charged structure.
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ContagiousPow
so essentially: cracked charge stone allows for charge on other objects, while charge only allows charge on the object you are holding? seems pretty cool, not sure if we could put that idea to other stones, maybe a cracked volatile that outputs a random explosion force? In homage to the jankiness of volatile currently, but it ranges from weaker than regular explode to pretty insane heights, could be cool.
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YourNeighborNat
ContagiousPow I'd almost want a cracked volatile to be an implosion stone, though that might be for another post